'It's obvious you know, seeing that you claim that no one knows more than you about religion' (13e) He is known as a profound thinker who came from an aristocratic family. The dialogue concerns the meaning of piety, or that virtue usually regarded as a manner of living that fulfills one's duty both to gods and to humanity. The gods love things because those things are pious. This is the kind of thing he understands and the ordinary Athenian does not. If the sentence is correct as written, write CCC in the blank. Etymology [ edit] In this way, one could say that piety is knowledge of how to live in relation to the gods. In contrast to the first distinction made, Socrates makes the converse claim. These are references to tales in Hesiod's Theogony. Socrates criticizes the definition that 'piety is what is pleasing to the gods' by saying that the gods disagree among themselves as to what is pleasing. a) Essential b) Etymological c) Coherent d) Contrastive. What does Zeno's behavior during the expedition reveal about him as a person? However, by the end of the dialogue, the notion of justice has expanded and is 'the all-pervading regulator of human actions' . Definiens = The word or phrase that defines the definiendum in a definition. Explore Thesaurus 2 pieties plural statements that are morally right but not sincere The same goes for the god's quarrels. The differentia = concerned with looking after the gods, A Socratic conception of the gods-humans relationship. )(14e) These three criteria are not stated explicitly in the dialogue by Socrates, nor does Euthyphro initially acknowledge them, but he recognises their validity in his own argumentative practice4: he justifies his own actions by referring to some general criterion5; he acknowledges contentious questions must be decided on rational grounds6; he attempts to fix his second proposal by referring to some norm that the gods do in fact all agree on7; and he assures Socrates he is capable of giving a satisfactory answer to his question i.e 'the request for a practicable normative standard for rational practical deliberation'8. He asks Euthyphro instead to give him a general definition that identifies that one feature that all holy deeds share in common. A 'divinely approved' action/person is holy, and a 'divinely disapproved' one is unholy Rather, the gods love pious actions such as helping a stranger in need, because such actions have a certain intrinsic property, the property of being pious. In essence, Socrates' point is this: In the reading, Euthyphro gives several different definitions of the term piety. Socrates points out that while that action might be considered pious, it is merely an example of piety not a general definition of piety itself. (a) Is it loved because it is pious? "Zeus the creator, him who made all things, you will not dare speak of; for where fear is, there also is reverence.". Socrates professes admiration for Euthyphro's knowledge. the gods might play an epistemological role in the moral lives of humans, as opposed to an ontological or axiological one. in rlly simple terms: sthg is being led, because one leads it and it is not the case that because it's being led, one leads it. INFLECTED PASSIVES = HAVE A NOTION OF CAUSALITY, With the help of Socrates' careful grammatical distinctions, his point becomes clear and understood. The question, "Do the gods love piety because it is pious, or is it pious because the gods love it?" the action that one is recipient of/ receives - gets carried. Euthyphro is thus prosecuting his father for homicide on a murderer's behalf. The third definition is wrong because using the Leibnizian principle, its definiens and definiendum are not mutually replaceable, that is to say, the holy and the god-beloved are not the same thing. c. That which is loved by the gods. - farmers' principal aim/ achievement is food from earth Socrates says Euthyphro is Daedalus, The Trial of Socrates (399 BCE in Athens), RH6 SET DOCUMENTS - in chronological order, The Language of Composition: Reading, Writing, Rhetoric, Lawrence Scanlon, Renee H. Shea, Robin Dissin Aufses, Eric Hinderaker, James A. Henretta, Rebecca Edwards, Robert O. Self. Examples used: Euthyphro's relatives think it unholy for a son to prosecute his father for homicide. Euthyphro refuses to answer Socrates' question and instead reiterates the point that piety is when a man asks for and gives things to the gods by means of prayer and sacrifice and wins rewards for them (14b). Sixth Definition (p. 12): obtuse: (a) intense, (b) stupid, (c) friendly, (d) prompt. Socrates, however, has a problem with the gods having any need of sacrifices from us. Similarly, things aren't pious because the gods view them in a certain way. He says they should make this correction: what ALL the gods disapprove of is unholy, what ALL the gods approve of is holy and what SOME approve of and OTHERS disapprove of is neither or both. Socrates' Objection: The notion of care involved here is unclear. Indeed, Socrates, by imposing his nonconformist religious views, makes us (and Euthyphro included, who in accepting Socrates' argument (10c-d) contradicts himself), less receptive to Euthyphro's moral and religious outlook. - knowledge is also required, as evidenced when Euthyphro describes piety as knowledge of how to sacrifice and pray. Piety is doing as I am doing; that is to say, prosecuting any one who is guilty of murder, sacrilege, or of any similar crime-whether he be your father or mother, or whoever he may be-that makes no difference; and not to prosecute them is impiety. This same idea is expressed in the dialogue. The act of leading, results in the object entering the condition of being led. When we take the proposition 'where justice is, there also is piety' and its inverse: 'where piety is, there also is justice', we discover in similar fashion, that 'piety is not everywhere where piety is, for piety is a part of justice' (12d). Setting: the porch of King Archon's Court E says yes "and would have been ashamed before men" That is, Euthyphro should be ashamed before men. Indeed, Socrates proves false the traditional conception of piety and justice as 'sometimes interchangeable' , through his method of inversing propositions. a. 9e Euthyphro's first definition of piety is what he is doing now, that is, prosecuting his father for manslaughter (5d). This conclusion is reached by a long discussion on concepts concerning the Theory of causal priority, which is ignited by Socrates' question: is the holy loved by the gods because it is holy, or is it holy because it is loved? So he asks Euthyphro to explain to him what piety is. First Definition of piety: "just what I'm doing now."Euthyphro begins to list examples of pious actions, such as charging someone for murder or any other criminal activities Rejected: Socrates doesn't accept lists as an acceptable definition. Euthyphro is a dialogue between Socrates and a traveling cleric. We must understand that Plato adds necessary complexities, hurdles and steps backwards, in order to ensure that, we, as readers, like Socrates' interlocutors, undergo our very own internal Socratic questioning and in this way, acquire true knowledge of piety. "But to speak of Zeus, the agent who nurtured all this, you don't dare; for where is found fear, there is also found shame." Question: What is piety? Both gods and men quarrel on a deed - one party says it's been done unjustly, the other justly. The three conditions for a Socratic definition are universality, practical applicability, and essence (according to Rabbas). a pious act, remark, belief, or the like: the pieties and sacrifices of an austere life. That which is holy b. ties. Moreover, both men radically oppose one another in their religious views: Euthyphro is an exponent of the traditional Athenian religiosity, whereas Socrates represents new intellectualism. Socrates 'bypasses the need to argue against the alternative that the gods do not have reasons for loving what they love.' What Does Nietzsche Mean When He Says That God Is Dead? 24) (he! 'something does not get approved because it's being approved, but it's being approved because it gets approved' Elenchus: Euthyphro runs off. He states that the gods love the god-beloved because of the very fact that it is loved by the gods. Euthyphro's second definition, before amended by Socrates, fails to meet this condition because of the variety in the gods' judgements. The concept to be defined is that of holiness or piety (z6 r the need for a defini- tion is presented in a manner characteristic of the early dialogues. Initially, he is only able to conceive of justice 'in terms of the enforcement of particular laws, and he was willing to join this narrow concept of justice to piety.' But exert yourself, my friend; for it is not hard to understand what I mean. In Socrates' definitional dialogue with Euthyphro, Socrates argues against Euthyphro's suggestion that 'the holy is what all the gods love' (9e) - Euthyphro's third attempt at a definition (his second was that piety is what the gods love). - cattle-farmer looking after cattle 13d One oftheir servants had killed an enslaved person, and Euthyphro's father had tied the servantup and left him in a ditch while he sought advice about what to do. Striving to make everyone happy. He remarks that if he were putting forward these ideas and suggestions, it would fair to joke that he had inherited from Daedalus the tendency for his verbal creations to run off. UPAE (according to Rabbas - these are the three conditions for a Socratic definition). Socrates asks whether the gods love the pious because it is the pious, or whether the pious is pious only because it is loved by the gods (10a). In the second half of the dialogue, Socrates suggests a definition of "piety", which is that "PIETY IS A SPECIES OF THE GENUS "JUSTICE" (12d), in text 'HOLY IS A DIVISION OF THE JUST' but he leads up to that definition with observations and questions about the difference between species and genus, starting with the question: Euthyphro then proposes a fifth definition: 'is the holy approved by the gods because it is holy or is it holy because it's approved? Or is it the case that all that is holy is just, whereas not all that's just is holy - part of its holy and part of its different? DCT thus challenging the Gods' omnipotence, how is justice introduced after the interlude: wandering arguments, Soc: see whether it doesn't seem necessary to you that everything holy is just In this case, H, a hot thing, has a high temperature. Irwin sets out the first inadequacy of the definition as logical. It therefore means that certain acts or deeds could therefore be considered both pious and impious. That which is loved by the gods. - when socrates asks Euthyphro to what goal's achievement services to the gods contributes. (14e) Tantalus: a mythical king of Lydia, of proverbial wealth; ancestor of the house of Atreus, offender of the gods and sufferer of eternal punishment as a result. Although Socrates does concede that the two terms are co-extensive, he is keen to examine the definiens and definiendum in 'non-extensional contexts' (Geach, 'Plato's Euthyphro: An Analysis and Commentary'). the holy gets approved (denotes the action that one is at the receiving end of) for the reason that it's holy, AND IT IS NOT THAT A self defeating definition. This is mocked by Aristophanes in Clouds. Socrates argues in favour of the first proposition, that an act is holy and because it is holy, is loved by the gods. Things are pious because the gods love them. It is, Euthyphro says, dear to them. Soc then asks Euthyphro the precise kind of division of the just that is holy. An example proving this interpretation is the discussion which takes place on the relationship between men and gods. Soc: then is all that is just holy? THE principle of substitutivity of definitional equivalents + the Leibnizian principle. Similarly, There are other features in 'holiness' and the god's love of the holy, must lie in their perception of these features. 7a Elenchus (Refutation): The same things are both god-loved and god-hated. I.e. Add dashes where necessary. Sorry, Socrates, I have to go.". 2) looking after = service as in a slave's service toward his master. 1st Definition: Piety is what Euthyphro is doing now, namely prosecuting wrongdoers. In a religious context, piety may be expressed through pious activities or devotions, which may vary among countries and cultures. Euthyphro is a paradigmatic early dialogue of Plato's: it is brief, deals with a question in ethics, consists of a conversation between Socrates and one other person who claims to be an expert in a certain field of ethics, and ends inconclusively. 'If the divinely approved and the holy were the same thing, then Euthyphro on the other hand is prosecuting his father for homicide. Although Socrates' argument is generally logical, it relies upon 'a purgation of subjectivity from divine principles'. Socrates' daimonion. After Socrates shows how this is so, Euthyphro says in effect, "Oh dear, is that the time? Moreover, being god-loved is a ('effect', or accidental feature) of piety, rather than its , since it happens as a result of its existing characteristics. Socrates asks Euthyphro for the same type of explanation of the kind of division of justice what's holy is. 2) DISTINCTION = Socrates drops the active participles and substitutes them for inflected third person singular present passives so we have THE ORIGINAL PRESENT PASSIVE NEUTER PARTICIPLES + INFLECTED THIRD PERSON SINGULAR PRESENT PASSIVES. Socrates: Socrates says that Euthyphro has now answered in the way he wanted him to. Socrates says that he would prefer their explanations to stay put and be securely founded rather than have the wealth of Tantalus to complement his Daedalan cleverness. Socrates uses as analogies the distinctions between being carried/ carrying, being led/ leading, being seen/ seeing to help Euthyphro out. Since quarrels and disputes take place over things that are unquantifiable/ abstract, for example: disagreement as to whether something is just or unjust or fine, despicable or good and bad. 'I am trying to say this, that if something is coming to be so or is being affected, then its not the case that it gets to be so because its coming to be so, but that it's coming to be so, because it gets to be so, nor that it gets affected because it's being affected, but that it's being affected because it gets affected.' If something is a thing being carried, it is because it gets carried Summary and Analysis of Plato's 'Euthyphro'. When Euthyphro misunderstands Socrates' request that he specify the fine things which the gods accomplish, he '[falls] back into a mere regurgitation of the conventional elements of the traditional conception' , i.e. Through their dialogue, Euthyphro tries to explain piety and holiness to him, however all the definitions given turned out to be unsatisfactory for Socrates. is Socrates' conception of religion and morality. Socrates persists, https://www.thoughtco.com/platos-euthyphro-2670341 (accessed March 4, 2023). The dispute is therefore, not, on whether the wrong-doer must pay the penalty, but on who the wrongdoer is, what he did, or when etc. the differentia: The portion of the definition that is not provided by the genus. It would be unacceptable to suppose that the gods could make anything pious simply by loving it; there must be an existing pious quality that causes these pious things to be loved by the gods, a criterion that the gods use to decide whether or not a thing is pious. Analyzes how socrates is eager to pursue inquiry on piety and what is considered holy. View the full answer. OTHER WORDS FOR piety - whereas 2) if the 'divinely approved' were 'divinely approved' on account of its getting approved by the gods, then the holy would be holy too on account of its getting approved.' Which of the following claims does Euthyphro make? He asks, do we look after the gods in the same way as we look after other things? This, Soc says, means that holiness is a kind of skill in trading between gods and men. The former might be translated most easily as 'a thing being carried' and the latter as 'gets carried'. Just > holy. Socrates again asks: "What is piety?" Socrates' reply : Again, this is vague. Socrates' Objection: When pressed, this definition turns out to be just the third definition in disguise. How to pronounce Euthyphro? There are many Gods, whom all may not agree on what particular things are pious or impious. Euthyphro says it's a big task. Socrates bases his discussion on the following question: is the holy loved by the gods because it is holy, or is it holy because it is loved? EUTHYPHRO DILEMMA - justice is required but this must be in the way that Socrates conceived of this, as evidenced by the fact that Euthyphro fails to understand Socrates when he asks him to tell him what part of justice piety is and vice versa. This is essentially 'what's approved by the gods'. Transcribed image text: Question 13 (1 point) Listen In the Euthyphro, what kind of definition of piety or holiness does Socrates want Euthyphro to give? This circumstance casts a shadow over the discussion. First, Euthyphro suggests that holiness is persecuting religious offenders. 3) looking after qua knowledge of how to pray and sacrifice to the gods Def 4: Euthyphro conceives of piety and justice as interchangeable - the traditional conception of piety and justice. (EUTHYPHRO HAS CONCEIVED PIETY AND JUSTICE TO BE CONNECTED, WHEREAS SOC SHOWS THAT THEY ARE SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT, FOR JUSTICE IS MORE COMPREHENSIVE THAN PIETY) Euthyphro Euthyphro is one of Plato's early dialogues, dated to after 399 BC. Soc asks what the god's principal aim is. Therefore, given that the definiens and definiendum are not mutually replaceable in the aforementioned propositions, Socrates, concludes that 'holy' and 'god-beloved' are not the same and that 'holy' cannot be defined as 'what all the gods love'. In that case it would be best for me to become your pupil'. Euthyphro agrees with the latter that the holy is a division of the just. - 1) if the holy were getting approved because of its being holy, then the 'divinely approved' too would be getting approved because of its being 'divinely approved' 14c That which is holy. It therefore should be noted that Socrates regarded the previous line of questioning as heading in the right direction. - Whereas gets carried denotes the action that one is at the receiving end of - i.e. Daedalus is said to have created statues that were so realistic that they had to be tied down to stop them from wandering off. I strongly believe that, in the concluding section of the dialogue, his intention is to shed light on the characteristics which are essential to a definition of piety. People laugh at a film because it has a certain intrinsic property, theproperty of being funny. 1) Socrates places restraints on his argument which render such a conclusion. Dad ordered hummous a delicious paste made from chick peas and sesame seeds and a salad called tabouli. Socrates asks: What goal does this achieve? Euthyphro replies that it is for this reason. That which is loved by the gods. TheEuthyphroDilemmaandUtilitarianism! or (b) Is it pious because it is loved? SO THE 'DIVINELY APPROVED' AND THE HOLY ARE NOT THE SAME THING. On this definition, these things will be both pious and impious, which makes no sense. S = science of requests + donations Plato founded the Academy in Athens. Piety has two senses: Euthyphro begins with the narrower sense of piety in mind. This amounts to saying that if we are pious, we give the gods what pleases them. PIETY IS A SPECIES OF THE GENUS "JUSTICE" second definition of piety what is dear to the gods is pious, what is not is impious third definition of piety the pious is what all the gods love, the impious is what all the gods hate fourth definition of piety Ironic flattery: 'remarkable, Euthyphro! Unholiness would be choosing not to prosecute. Socrates says he is claiming the OPPOSITE of what was said by the poet dutiful respect or regard for parents, homeland, etc. Euthyphro proposes (6e) that the pious ( ) is the same thing as that which is loved by the gods ( ), but Socrates finds a problem with this proposal: the gods may disagree among themselves (7e). Definition 3: Piety is what all the gods love. - the relative weight of things = resolved by weighing It recounts the conversation between the eponymous character and Socrates a few weeks before the famous trial of the latter. (15a) Unlike the other examples, the 'holy' does not derive its holiness from the something done to it, i.e. says: 'like Proteus, you're not to be let go until you speak' This is what makes them laugh. A logically adequate definition does not contradict itself. Soc THEREFORE Things are pious because the gods love them. THE MAIN FLAW WITH SOCRATES' ARGUMENT IS THAT it relies on the assumption of deities who consider morality and justice in deciding whether or not something is pious, and therefore whether or not to love it. There are several essential characteristics to piety that Socrates alerts us to. LATER ON, AT END OF DIALOGUE PROBLEMS WITH SOCRATES' ARGUMENT Things are pious because the gods love them. is one of the great questions posed in the history of philosophy. When, however, the analogy is applied to the holy, we observe that a different conclusion is reached. Irwin sets out two inadequacies: logical inadequacy and moral inadequacy. After refuting def 2 by stating that disagreement occurs not on the justice of an action (I.e. How to describe it? Socrates says he hasn't answered his question, since he wasn't asking what turns out to be equally holy and unholy - whatever is divinely approved is also divinely disapproved. 'I'm a slower learner than the jurymen' 9b . - the work 'marvellous' as a pan-compound, is almost certainly ironical. It follows from this that holiness, qua (as being) 'looking after' the gods, is of benefit to the gods - an absurd claim. To grasp the point of the question, consider this analogous question:Isa film funny because people laugh at it or do people laugh at it because it's funny? - groom looking after horses Euthyphro then revises his definition, so that piety is only that which is loved by all of the gods unanimously (9e). Impiety is what all the gods hate. Moreover, a definition cannot conclude that something is pious just because one already knows that it is so. Euthyphro, a priest of sorts, claims to know the answer, but Socrates shoots down each definition he proposes. By asking Euthyphro, "what is piety?" So . The main struggles to reach a definition take place as a result of both men's different conceptions of religion and morality. No matter what one's relationship with a criminal is irrelevant when it comes to prosecuting them. SOCRATES REJECTS EUTHYPHRO'S CONCEPTION OF JUSTICE IN RELATION TO PIETY. The Devine Command Theory Piety is making sacrifices to the Gods and asking for favours in return. Taylor explains that once justice, or rather, the adjective hosios is viewed as interchangeable with eusebes, ("well-disposed towards the gods", "religious"), as it has been traditionally , the social obligations which were contained in justice become understood. Soc asks: 'is the holy approved by the gods because it is holy or is it holy because it's approved?' Socrates says that humans too do not dispute with each other on this. Consider this question, for instance: Are works of art in museums because they are works of art, ordo we call them "works of art" because they are in museums? Each of the gods may love a different aspect of piety. 2) looking after qua service to the gods in the same way as a slave services his master Here Euthyphro gives a universal definition of holiness However, he points out that the gods have quarrels and disputes with one another. Euthyphro objects that the gifts are not a quid pro quo (a favour or advantage granted in return for something), between man and deity, but are gifts of "honour, esteem, and favour", from man to deity. Euthyphro propose that piety (the quality of being religious) is whatever is dear to the gods are good virtues because the gods decide everything. The English term "piety" or "the pious" is translated from the Greek word "hosion." This dialogue begins when Socrates runs into Euthyphro outside the authorities and the courts. Since this would not benefit the gods, what is it to them? It is not enough to list the common properties of the phenomena because we need to know what makes an action pious in order to justify our actions as pious. The word is related to a verb of vision, and suggests a recognisable mark. Holiness is what he is doing now, prosecuting a criminal either for murder or for sacrilegious theft etc., regardless of whether that person happens to be his father. To overcome Socrates' objection to his second definition of piety, Euthyphro amends his definition. A9: Socrates believes that the first definition piety given by Euthyphro is very vague; Euthyphro has only given an example of what piety is (his current action in prosecuting his father) not a definition. In other words, a definiton must reveal the essential characteristic that makes pious actions pious, instead of being an example of piety. Socrates, therefore, concludes that 'x is being-carried (pheromenon) because x [one carries it/ it gets carried] (pheretai), and it is not the case that [one carries/ it gets carried] x because x is being-carried' Definition 2: Piety is what is agreeable to (loved by) the gods. Intro To Philosophy Midterm- Plato 5 Dialogue, 4 Approaches to Philosophy - Charles Pierce, Final Exam Review Questions - Wireless Networ, John Lund, Paul S. Vickery, P. Scott Corbett, Todd Pfannestiel, Volker Janssen, Byron Almen, Dorothy Payne, Stefan Kostka, Eric Hinderaker, James A. Henretta, Rebecca Edwards, Robert O. Self. 45! The poet Stasinus, probable author of the Cypria (fragment 24) These disputes cannot be settled easily as disputes can on: Are you not compelled to think that all that is pious is just? If the substitutions were extensional, we would observe that the terms 'holy' and 'god-beloved' would 'apply to different instances' too and that they were not so different from each other as Socrates makes them out to be. 100% (1 rating) Option A. However, Euthyphro wants to define piety by two simultaneously: being god-loved and some inherent pious trait, which cannot logically co-exist. 15e-16a As for the definition 'to be pious is to be god-loved'. Third definition teaches us that This definition cannot contradict itself and is therefore logically adequate. 2nd Definition:Piety is what is loved by the gods ("dear to the gods" in some translations); impiety is what is hated by the gods. o 'service to shipbuilders' = achieves a boat ThoughtCo. 15b+c = Socrates again accuses Euthyphro of being like Daedalus since his 'stated views are shown to be shifting rather than staying put'. But Euthyphro can't say what that goal is. The main explanation for this is their difference in meaning. According to the lecture, piety is a term that refers to what it means to be good or holy in the eyes of the gods. Thirdly, it rules out the possibility that the gods love 'holiness' for an incidental feature by the suggestion that they must love it for some reason intrinsic to 'holiness' . 2) Similarly, Euthyphro, at various points, professes lack of understanding, for example, when he is asked to separate justice and piety and find out which is a part of the other (12a) and his wrong-turning. conclusion The holy is not what's approved by the gods. He then says that if this were the case, he would in fact be cleverer in his craft than Daedalus, his ancestor, since he was capable to move only his own products, not the statements of other people as well as his own. SOCRATES REJECTS EUTHYPHRO'S CONCEPTION OF PIETY According to Merrian-Webster dictionary, piety is defined as devotion to God. Euthyphro is one of Plato's earliest Socratic dialogues. Given that the definiens and definiendum are not mutually replaceable in the aforementioned propositions, Socrates, therefore, concludes that 'holy' and 'god-beloved' are not the same and that 'holy' cannot be defined as 'what all the gods love'. b. Definiendum = THE HOLY, A Moral: if we want to characterize piety (or doing right), perhaps it's best to leave the gods out of the picture. But we can't improve the gods. CONTENT LOGICAL INADEQUACY 11c For example, the kind of division of an even number is two equal limbs (for example the number of 6 is 3+3 = two equal legs). Irony is not necessarily, a way of aggression/ cruelty, but as a teaching tool. Treating everyone fairly and equally. The non-extensional contexts only prove one specific thing: ''[holy]' cannot be defined as 'god-loved' if the gods' reason for loving what is [holy] is that it is [holy]'. defining piety as knowledge of how to pray and sacrifice to the gods I understand this to mean that the gods become a way for us to know what the right thing to do is, rather than making it right or defining what is right. He comes to this conclusion by asking: He is associated with the carving of limbs which were separated from the main body of the statue for most of their length, thus suggesting the ability to move freely. So why bother? "Summary and Analysis of Plato's 'Euthyphro'." You can find out more about our use, change your default settings, and withdraw your consent at any time with effect for the future by visiting Cookies Settings, which can also be found in the footer of the site. He was probably a kind of priest in a somewhat unorthodox religious sect. Q10. And so, as Diamond convincingly argues, the traditional Greek gods and their traditional 'causative role' are replaced by 'universal causal essences or forms'. Although Socrates generally gets the better of Euthyphro, some of what Euthyphro says makes a certain amount of sense.

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